Who has used the new Leica M8 and what do you think about it?

[Will_Perlis]

Now that you've mentioned it, I think I see more Moire in the rug in the foreground.

Take a look at the guy with the Moire in his shirt, follow his leg down and towards the camera. The pattern seems to get wider to the right as it gets closer to the shelves with the bags and little tripod on top.

I'll have to look more when I'm at a good screen.

 

[scott kirkpatrick]

pixel peeping guidelines

Isuspect that a large fraction of us peepers are using LCD monitors. And they do exaggerate pattern noise, Moire, that sort of thing. Can someone with a CRT (remember those?) take a look at our examples? Also, state your viewing conditions (in my case, Thinkpad T43p, 1600x1200 pixels, calibrated, but subject to strong daylight when the sun is up).

Producing a jpeg at full resolution and then cranking it up to 200% or 400% introduces artifacts due to the jpeg encoding which is being undone. A better method to look closely into an image is to stay in the raw file development package and examine the developed preview when it is zoomed up, or to output an uprezzed jpeg and study that at its new 100%.

scott

 

[Ray West]

I've had a look at the dng file, at 100% and 200%, the shirt looks sort of ok, bearing in mind it may be glare, shadow, sweat, it just looks odd. I think the carpet is due to lighting variations and wear, where folk walk. It is not a fair test, but the colours look ok, but much seems soft/blurred, as someone else mentioned, and the plain colours look a bit noisy. Not a fair test, but interesting.

Best wishes,

Ray

PS, by its nature, you will either get some moire, or soft images, at some stage or another in a digital process, since you have regular spaced pixels, not quite matching regular spaced real world lines, sometimes.

 

[Will_Perlis]

Scott, I've now looked at it on two Viewsonics, one a calibrated but old 19 inch CRT at 1280 x 1024 and the other a calibrated VP2030b LCD at 1600 x 1200, and I'm doing my pixel peeping in LR developer or ACR. I can see those artifacts on both.

Ray, the pattern on the back of the shirt is either moire or I'll donate an important organ or two to the hospital of your choice. I was right near him a few seconds later and he didn't have any strange color patches in his back.

Re the rug, I'm still seeing a diagonal straight line pattern going towards the shelves at the very bottom of the DNG. I won't be so definite about this one but as I remember it, the carpeting at Samys is so worn there are no lines evident even if they were there earlier in its life. It's faint enough so I'd have missed it if I hadn't gone looking for it.

In any event it's not an a priori big deal to me. I'll be curious to see the moire prevalence when the M8 and its files are more common.

 

[Will_Perlis]

I guess I wasn't shaking as much as I thought. I found an earlier shot I thought I had deleted. It's at 1/8. Overexposed, but still... Also, the Moire pattern in the carpet isn't visible here. It's either been washed out or I was in a slightly different position.

http://home.att.net/~hwill/L1010373.DNG

 

[scott kirkpatrick]

The "My First M8 pix" circus is starting

With European deliveries over the past few days there are now at least a dozen folks comparing their color shifts in the red using various development packages (and shortly their Moire patterns) on the Leica website,
www.leica-camera-users.com . Sean Reid checks in there fairly regularly (he was booted from the FM forums, but seems mellow about it) and is preparing to digest and expound on Leica's answer to the question of why they selected an 8bit dng representation for the M8's files.

Other news -- it seems that early customer orders for Leica M8s are running about 5:1 in favor of the black model, but the factory made equal quantities of silver and black M8s. I guess the silver model shows up better in crowds and spreads the word, so some number of desperate wannabe pro-M8 shooters will soon be using the shiny version in order to avoid another month's delay in getting their hands on what appears to be a very nice camera.

Asher -- I know it would be great if everybody came here, but really there is a lot of noise in the early M8 threads, and they are better contained where they fit best.

scott

 

[Asher Kelman]

Well Scott, we'll be soon M8 competent. Hopefully we'll benefitt from FM hardline stand on gifted posters! I think we'll have no problem keeping the signal to noise ratio in line with OPF needs!

So what are they saying justifies 8 BIT DNG?

Do we have to worry about the red color and moire? I'm really interested in this camera. It feels beautiful in black. It's not so quiet as the M7 but it's wonderful to hold and simple to use, very simple.

The big thing for me is the simplicity of the focus system and the quality of wide angle lenses.

Asher

 

[scott kirkpatrick]

My M8 predictions

I hope to get one from the December allocation at Popflash, and even then it depends on arranging a pickup by a traveller to the US, so for now I am just enjoying this show from the sidelines. However, I did pick up a Voightlaender Nokton 50/1.5 lens which looks incredibly new and modern sitting on my peeling-vulcanite M2, as a low cost introduction to the world of lenses with awesome reputations, so I have some bragging rights.

Reading between the lines of the forum posts and some private emails, I predict:

Leica chose 8 bit companding because it permits really fast review and shooting, and don't have to be ashamed of anything -- except for some embarassing marketing overstatements ("16 bit resolution") that occur throughout their literature. They are preparing a statement, and taking their time to get it right.

Firmware upgrade #1 will probably bring some of the most useful digital controls -- exposure offset, ISO and WB closer to the top of the stack -- something like one-button access to those menus, with specific buttons dedicated, which is what Sean Reid has been arguing for.

Firmware upgrade #2 will let us choose whether to get the 8bit or the original 16bit raw files. The 16 bit option is simply a step back to the firmware which was developed for the DMR reflex version that has been on the market for a year now.

Color profiles will oscillate for the next few months until there are several stable versions available and each M8 owner who cares can loudly protest that only their version is usable, the rest are crap. After the most obvious issues -- overall saturation and how do you like your strong reds -- are sorted out, there will be a rear-guard action that protests the sunsets are unacceptable...

The M9, which will hit the market in only 5 more years, will have weather seals.

None of the aforementioned unhappy M8 owners will even consider giving up their M8's unless you pry their cold, dead fingers off... It is obviously addictive.

scott

 

[Ben Lifson]

Leica M8

I haven't even seen one yet (or, really, a picture of one) much less held and used one so I can't say anything except that the RD-1 is still better for me than a digital SLR and that I'm having good results also with the Lumix LX1 with a 75mm accessory optical finder mounted on top (epoxy glue holding the accessory shoe to the camera) and, with fingernail polish, the right barrel extension marked on the barrel itself. So I figure when I come up w/ the money for the M8 the camera is going to be just fine.

By the way, for ten days in the Philippines, that same 75mm finder mounted on top of my Canon 10D, the review turned off, and with hyperfocal settings used as best I could, I could use the 10D like a Leica, as we did in the old days, w/ the lens pre-set to the depth of field range within which we wanted to shoot. It was rather good, using the 10D as though it were a Leica. I had some problems w/ framing at first given the discrepancy between the height of the lens and the height of the finder but these were easy enough to dispel... Adjustments like that come quickly.

 

[Mark Schafer]

M8, a typical M, just imported to the 21 century

Yes, i loved it. Just took some time to get to know the M8 at the PhotoExpo in NY:

It really feels solid and professional like a M6/7, with a built in winder and free choice of film speeds starting at 160 ISO with a Kodak chip (why no 100ASA).
The command structure to access all the goodies under the hood are fairly intuitive (but differ obviously to the Canon or Nikon logic).

The exposure times are in half values, which i love, sync time at 1/250sec (finally) and still has a bottom cover, which looks very familiar, that comes off (for the SD cards, up to 4GB, and the battery).

Seems to me like a home run, the only thing i want to see is the equivalent to the 1.4/35 Asph, which i guess would be a 28mm.

I haven't seen the files on a computer screen yet, but they had a print about 8"x12" which looked great (but so will my Canon Elph in this size).

I do find the pricing very competitive as well considering the price of a new M7.

This will be the new standard in rangefinder cameras for the years to come and for good reason (now only the files need to hold up).

 

[Asher Kelman]

I haven't even seen one yet (or, really, a picture of one) much less held and used one so I can't say anything except that the RD-1 is still better for me than a digital SLR and that I'm having good results also with the Lumix LX1 with a 75mm accessory optical finder mounted on top (epoxy glue holding the accessory shoe to the camera) and, with fingernail polish, the right barrel extension marked on the barrel itself. So I figure when I come up w/ the money for the M8 the camera is going to be just fine.

By the way, for ten days in the Philippines, that same 75mm finder mounted on top of my Canon 10D, the review turned off, and with hyperfocal settings used as best I could, I could use the 10D like a Leica, as we did in the old days, w/ the lens pre-set to the depth of field range within which we wanted to shoot. It was rather good, using the 10D as though it were a Leica. I had some problems w/ framing at first given the discrepancy between the height of the lens and the height of the finder but these were easy enough to dispel... Adjustments like that come quickly.

I hope you will feed us as many pictures as you can on both the RD-1, the Lumix LX1 and the Canon 10D used as a rangefinder.

We really need to beef up the experienced rangefinder end of OPF. I unfortunately sold off all my rangefinders long ago. I have re-entered the world by shooting with film with the M7 borrowed from Leica for an hour!

So travel, street or any other work would be valued and a joy for us!

What is so special about the LX-1 when you have the RD-1?

I'm asking since my son, Emile, posted to get advice on the finest pocketable digicam available.

http://www.openphotographyforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1372

Anyway be, I wish you were in L.A. so I could see your work or even stral the RD-1 for a day!

Asher

 

[Asher Kelman]

Well, the reviews of he M8 sing its praises. I recommend subscribing to Sean Reids excellent review site:

www.reidreviews.com/

He's up to part 3.

From it, I get the sense that the M8 is more like a MF camera in the way it renders images and this seems to fit in with Uwe Steinmueller describing a more 3D appearance.

From the images I have seen in various reviews, this camera has likely no competitor in 35mm cameras when shooting below 400 ISO. Noise seems to be a problem at 400 and above but until ISO 800 is corrected readily.

It is still early times, but I see resurgence of rangefinder interest.

Asher

 

[Roger Lambert]

problems

The forums are talking now about problems with the m8. Evidently, the camera is picking up too much IR information, which is causing strange and difficult-to-correct color shifts.

Leica is recommending using IR filters on the lens for now, but has promised a more effective solution down the road - perhaps a retrofit with an IR filter in front of the sensor.

 

[Rainer Viertlböck]

sounds as a catastrophe for leica, and i hope not also for their new acquisitation.....
i cannot see any solution for the ir sensitivity, except the one which leica suggest, to use a hard cutting ir filter.
the ir sensitivity is THE problem, although the banding isnt nice also,- but in my eyes by far not at the point where the color casts are.
i cannot see any fw solution here , on cannot map out colors which are not in any linear logic,- so also color profiling can not work here. bad. bad. bad.
this is the worthest camera flaw on a digital camera and it might even exceeds the problems the kodak 14n ff cameras showed, before they implemented a sensor upgrade in form of the kodak slr. this will be the solution for leica also, (- no other one,-! ) and this needs time cause the sensor has to be develloped and manufactored at first by kodak.
i am really sorry for leica, because this will be a disaster for them. but it is obvious that the m8 is not possible to be used under professional conditions, and even amateur users will struggle, if they have good eyes.
i owned a lot of leica cameras and i still have my old loved m4p .... although i sold them when they announced the cropped sensor for the DMR,- and bought the fullframe kodak at this time.

 

[Asher Kelman]

I have another point of view. I tried the camera. It's wonderful.

The problems are readily solved, for landscape and product shots there's no issue at all. Here the camera outshines any other 35mm digital camera from the files I have seen.

The very cause of the issue, a 0.5mm IR cut off filter, not a 1mm cut of filter, allows the lack of color fringing of the M8 and the high resolution of the superior wide angle Leica lenses.

With that, there's a need for an IR cut off filter at the front of a lens.

Only problem is the Leica aficionados were so ecstatic about their dreams come true, a real Leica Rangefinder, built in the standards of all the venerable Leica's before them, were crushed on discovering the IR issue themselves. Here, the Leica PR and marketing people made a huge blunder.

Leica passions for the ultimate in quality. To have this come so unexpectedly shattered some peoples Nirvana dream state.

However, if one were shooting landscapes or product shots or B&W, one would have strutted around knowing they had a MF digital camera with the finest Leica WA lens for some $8,000!

For weddings, the IR cut off filter would be needed because a lot of the black suits and black formal dresses of the guests contain synthetic fibers, which unfortunately reflect IR light. I don't think wool or cotton are such problems.

Anyway, Leica now controls the company that makes the digital innards of the camera. The purple color shift of black clothes is correctible with an IR cut-off filter. The latter is clear optical glass, has a transmission factor of 100% for visible light and stops the IR light by absorbing it a layer with no other obvious consequence.

In any case Leica Solms is burning the midnight oil to solve this issue and the guys probably are all red-faced and red-eyed!

Still, for me at least, I see this as a minor bump in the road, which will be absorbed into Leica legend in a short time.

Such is the issue when market pressures, from a consumer base and a company force products out too fast.

O.K., the gorgeous debutante can't drive a car or pour a martini, but she is educated, refined and a wonderful friend to people who can appreciate her!

I do!

Asher

 

[Rainer Viertlböck]

asher, i cannot agree herein at all, having collected and worked around with a lot of different sensor flaws in 35mm and in mf backs.
many M8 images i saw are not acceptable for me, and i do not see a fix here also which is acceptable for me. they say now that the reason why they used this 0.5mm glass is for the use of symmetric wideangle lenses. same problem would have than any kodak or dalsa using mf system, cause they work together with the 24mm digitars and 28mm sinarons. they are comparable with 16 and 21mm in 35mm systems. no IR transmission there, and also no CA at the edges with both lenses.
there would existed ways with multicoating to make the ir layer more absorptive.

but here happens, what happens too often with hi-tech companies, which are not longer leaded by camera enthusiasts ( as Barnack was...) . the head of all is the management which often not has idea and also not interest in their products, it goes to 100% about money decisions.
the developement and also the responsability is divided in different companies ( jenoptik made the digital part.... ) and the few photographers ( if any- to save money!!!! ) which had the camera for testing, are not taking serious enough to bring their voice in the management floor. their critic often also hurt some responsable person which should solve the problem,- he will do many things to avoid that this voices will be heard.
and if they are heard,- immediately the responsable company or the part inside promise that they will solve the problem soon.... the marketing says we need the camera NOW, so the decision is clear, and cannot be changed in short times for mot loosing the face and image.
you will see..... leica will finally do the same than kodak with its 14n camera- which was for many uses and lenses also a disaster... they will bring as soon as they can a updated version with a stronger coated IR filter.... and for some money they will "upgrade" the delivered v.1 cameras, because they simply have not the money to admit that they did something very wrong in the design. its a pity.... but it is in this way i.m.o.
i see black for leica. without red dot.

 

[Rainer Viertlböck]

Anyway, Leica now controls the company that makes the digital innards of the camera. Asher

no. sinar has not made the digital part of the m8, it was jenoptik who did,- the former owner of sinar, which also makes the emotion backs.

 

[Asher Kelman]

Actually I thought it's a small company that is the real plum of the deal, I forget the name!

Asher

 

[Rainer Viertlböck]

Actually I thought it's a small company that is the real plum of the deal, I forget the name!

Asher

http://www.jenoptic.com/

 

[Asher Kelman]

From Scott Kirkpatrick, M8 on order!

I've also been shooting film in my M2 as a way of getting a current view of what the special characteristics of my '60s M-lenses are and how I could use them. I have an M8 and 28/2.8 on order at Popflash. After they shipped out their first 21 units in less than a day, Popflash circulated a list of the next in line. I'm now #39 (higher perhaps. since I'm happy to take a silver unit). If Tony gets another shipment or two shipments totalling 30-40, in November, he'll drop ship mine to Florida, where one of my students will pick it and bring it to me. If not, I will wait a bit longer.

I'm more concerned about the cost and difficulty of purchase in Israel than the inconvenience of getting one early and having to send it in for the likely imager replacement. Of the three issues that have surfaced once they let "oroduction level" units loose in the wild -- 8bit encoding, hot spot bleeding, and IR sensitivity that requires at least an external filter -- I think the IR question will probably trigger a recall, and if the bleeding cannot be controlled by a timing fix in firmware, it will be dealt with by a new build of Kodak chips. I like the images, but Kodak does seem to screw up a lot, don't they? Incidentally, look at the baseball cap on the fireman standing by his big red truck in Sean Reid's M8 Review part 2. It's not black, it's purple. Sean's pretty non-technical, but once he understood that you can have two objects, both black to us humans, but one of them bright purple in daylight to the M8, he realized that no rgb profile can fix this and led the rush of PJ wedding photographers to the photostore counter for their IR block filters. He's taking two M8s to a wedding in NJ this weekend. Did you see the picture of a black tuxedo with bright purple silk lapels on LCU? That's what they have to avoid.

Coincidentally, I teach our students about new product igestation, from concept to introduction, and this is a classic case of what goes wrong and where the real risks are. Leica has two stikes against them -- engineers who for 50 years have defined a field, and are not good at listening to the Canon-wielding digital fraternity, and owners or managers who know how close to insolvency the company must be. Right now they are gambling that they can fix problems in the field, as they upgrade their understanding of a new set of customers and start another 50-year revenue stream. While meeting a payroll. And they are now learning that excellence on 99 points plus a screwup on 1 (in this case, maybe 2) can mean failure.

There's evidence that the IR problem is not a surprise, but was considered an issue only for fashion shooters, who it was presumed, would go out and buy IR block filters. But fashion shooters shoot into the lights, bringing out the bleed problem and the issue that cover filters offset the low flare characteristics for which one pays top dollar in buying Leica lenses. Fashion shooters at shows need long lenses, but that's another story. Anyway, what a pyramid of wishful thinking someone must have built. If Leica makes it to the middle of next year, they can fix up this mess, and I don't feel like waiting that long to use the M8.

Scott



I'm merely posting this for Scott

 

[Will_Perlis]

Does anyone care if I get rid of those two M8 DNG files I mentioned earlier up this thread? They don't seem at all relevant to current events and concerns.

 

[Nill Toulme]

If you can get past the lack of RAW capability, it's starting to sound like the new Canon G7 at least has to be given some serious consideration in this category.

Nill
~~
www.toulme.net

 

[scott kirkpatrick]

Does anyone care if I get rid of those two M8 DNG files I mentioned earlier up this thread? They don't seem at all relevant to current events and concerns.

I've gotten them, kept one (with the nice neon colors). Sorry, no serious problems so they don't attract attention these days. No problem here if you reclaim the space on your server.

scott

 

[Asher Kelman]

Does anyone care if I get rid of those two M8 DNG files I mentioned earlier up this thread? They don't seem at all relevant to current events and concerns.

Will, I like your M8 files! It shows the journey we have to go on in buying anything today. Unfortunately we dont have enough of this. Everyone should do this. Then we'd all learn.

If we can, I'd like to keep them active!

Asher

 

[Asher Kelman]

For discussion on trying or features of the M8, post in this thread here. Yes, this actual thread!







Discussion of Leica'a response to problems with the M8, post here:

http://www.openphotographyforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1430

Asher

 

[John Maio]

I owned an M8 this week . . .

... Picked it up at my local dealer on Monday the 6th (it was preordered in September) and sadly, decided to return it for a refund on Thursday the 9th.

While I could live with some of the issues, the IR sensitivity was the deal killer. I simply could not justify buying $200.00 hot mirror filters for my M lenses just to use the camera with confidence. The images it made were stunning and if and when Leica fixes the issues, I will certainly order another.

 

[WillGood]

The M8 will produce beautiful B&W images.
Professionals who need color images for work will be staying away from this version in droves.
There is a lot of wishful thinking by those emotionally & financially invested in Leica that all will be made whole.......... Those who can live with half-measure fixes will stick with it.

If you are a amateur photographer and can afford to discard bad color images, this camera will work for you.

Sorry, but we will be watching this play out for a long time, the absurd IR lens filter fix(!) is not a good sign.

Like Ranier, I went thru this already with the $5k kodak 14n & SLR*s. Very sharp cameras with no AA filter.
The 14n had green blobs, CA fringing, chroma noise, magenta/green color shift.
It did not have the "purple/black" IR issue nor the banding of the M8.

Sorry, these issues will not be made whole by software updates.

The bad buzz on the 14n pretty much killed kodak 's professional camera division, even though the follow up version: SLRc & n produced amazing images: Im still using 2 of them.
Cheers,

 

[Asher Kelman]

John, Will and Rainer,

We all agree that the Leica M9 gives great images. We know that IR can spoil this.

Certainly it's sad that giants get things so wrong in delivery of great things. We had high hopes, Canon and Nikon mounts would standardize options for photographers; fine, a great concept! However, images on the Kodak site were so underwhelming. How could this leader in photography not use the best photographers? Then the infamous CCD issues delivered the 14Ns coup de grace! You all have unarguable reactions based on such past disappointments and experience. Still, perhaps, is the M8 situation unique?

The M8 IR issue bloomed merely ten days ago. Leicaphiles are loyal. Still, many photographers are shocked and angry. Leica recognizes that. However, Leica Solms has deeply committed itself to its M8 users. I believe them!

Is it right for a pro today?

Just imagine the camera should have been released a little later. The loyal base of Leica uses should cover the M8 for now. Right now, Guy Mancuso and others have already demonstrated the IR blocking solution, others the profile remedy. It will be refined and tested in professional situations. For example, Sean Reid is using two M8 Leicas this weekend for a wedding. Let's wait. Leica's duty is to fix things.

Each professional photographer will then have to make a practical decision based on Leica's performance.

Right now, all over the world, the M8 is still a hot camera!


Asher

 

[WillGood]

Hi Asher
hmmmm.... My Leica, Love it or Leave it ? : )

While I respect your passion & generous spirit,
you should read this: http://luminous-landscape.com/new/index.shtml

Leica asked Riechman to delete the sensor issues in his review. : (

Best,
William

 

[John Maio]

John, Will and Rainer,

The M8 IR issue bloomed merely ten days ago. Leicaphiles are loyal. Still, many photographers are shocked and angry. Leica recognizes that. However, Leica Solms has deeply committed itself to its M8 users. I believe them!

Asher

Asher,

I'm not shocked and angry at all. Leica has its M8 camera back and I have my money back.

Today, I took my trusty M7 along to do a few documentary shots at a Veteran's day event. As there is only one good E6 developer left in town, I'll just have to wait until Monday evening to perhaps scan and post one or two images.

If and when they fix the issues, and the fixes are confirmed, I'll order another.