Covid 19 Lockdown

[Asher Kelman]

There are major benefits accruing.

• Decreased deaths from road accidents and homicides
• Major shift of workforce to work from home with huge saving for both employees and companies
• Cleaner air.
• Governments are starting to consider basic living wages for everyone!
• Food is in abundance and will remain so

 

[Tom dinning]

There is no reason for it Jerome. Do you have a valid reason why this should be the worlds number#1 concern?

Hi James.
I’m not sure where you live, James, but things seem to be quite different from a Darwin perspective.
And since I’m part of the world who is concerned by the current circumstances, I thought I might fill you in on a few things: if you’re interested, that is.

For us it’s not so black and white (non-racist). We have concerns about COVID but we are also concerned about other things.
Concern and the amount thereof is quite dependent on circumstances, as you probably know.
When there was an outbreak in Wuhan I was a bit concerned. I know enough about Petri dishes and such to understand how things can get out of hand if not attended to appropriately.
Watching the map was like being back in school, watching a cluster of bacteria growing slowly at first, then accelerating as the days went on. Fascinating.

Then my teacher would tell be to dump the dish in a bucket of bleach before the whole class came down with syphilis or whatever it was I was growing.

He would then explain to me how it all works, this herd infection and exponential stuff.
I would nod with agreement and understanding and wait until he left so I could grow something I’d found on the end of my dick. (Fortunately it turned out to be a fungus, most likely picked up from my under ware that hadn’t been changed in a week).

It was the time in my life I say polio eradicated from Australia. I found out how that worked as well.
Not a miracle, James. Fucking hard work by some very smart cookies along with a country who was willing to help by listening to them.
I had mates who had polio. Very unpleasant.

I remember all that and keep it in mind when ever I come across an infectious disease I don’t like. Like measles, mumps, whooping cough, diphtheria.... you know the things. Baby killers my mum called them.

I later discovered that there are many diseases we have around we get at some time of our lives and develop our own immunity.
Lucky us.
Some we even get from our mum while breast feeding. Just for a while at least so we can survive long enough to have our shots and/or develop our own by getting a little bit sick.

It was a concern for my parents. Not the only one, but important enough to do something if the neighbourhood had a rush of measles or the like.
“You’re not going out with you mate, Dave, this week, Tommy. His sister has measles” she order. “Now eat your Brussel sprouts“

I had no idea what Brussel sprouts had to do with measles or Dave’s sister but I did as she ordered or I’d get a thumping as well.

It was my mum’s way of being scientific in a tough love sort of way. I didn’t understand everything but I knew she had things under control.
She had 9 kids at the end and none of us died from diseases. Mind you, she did say she felt like killing us from time to time and her cooking was enough to kill the family dog; literally. It dies of heart disease. Like most of the men in the family who ate her food.

So what am I getting at.

Well, for a start, we don’t know everything about everything. Some days we just need to go with the flow and see what happens.
If we don’t, we may get a beating from my mum, figuratively speaking.
Then again, we might lose out on something that catches up with us later.

Case in mind.
When I was 63 I got real sick. Collapsed in the living room, chill, and fever, unable to move. Thought I was goin to die.
Spent some time in emergency with doctors scratching their head. Blood tests showed nothing.
Someone asked me if I wanted to see a preacher.
“Fuck off, I’d rather die” I yelled.
I didn’t die as you can clearly tell.

Turns out I had parvovirus. No, not the dog sort, silly. That’s what I thought.

I believe this is one of those ‘herd immunity’ things.
Kids get infected from each other when they exchange body fluids. Ech! Saliva mainly. Grubby little buggers.
But it’s mild. My mum called it Slapped Face Disease because of the red cheeks it produces, along with a snotty nose and a mild fever that last a day or two. Not a big deal for any kid.

Once done they are immune. Nice!

The herd get it end everyone is immune. A whole classroom of snotty nosed, red faced kids. Double yuck!

Well, almost everyone. Seems like I missed out. Probably because I didn’t mix with the right kids, or any kids. I was locked away quite a bit for setting fire to most things.

So, when I came across a snotty grand daughter with a slapped cheek I didn’t think anything of it. And I finished up with an affectionately transmitted disease that rendered me useless.

You see, old people react differently to young people when it comes to disease. While a kid can feel off colour for a day or 2, I was nearly killed me of and it took me months to recover. Old people die from it. Some don’t. Thnanks to a smart med team and good care. And my own good general health.

You see, James, some days I was concerned for good reason, other days I wasn’t concerned and should have been.

Now I’m concerned all the time. Not paranoia, just appropriate for my health and the health of those around me.

So, right now, I’m concerned. It feels like parvovirus all over again.
I wonder how this CIVID thing will affect me and those around me and what I should do to alleviate any anxiety I might have.

Mind you, I don’t lose sleep over it. I have other concerns for that. Like a pain in my neck that is giving me a permanent headache, the increase in rates the council just slammed on land owner, a tree out the from that needs lopping, and general ageing complains.

I have noticed there are different levels of concern around me from different people.
An ex-colleague seems to think he’s immune. After all, he lived in S.Africa for 40 years and was shot at by rebels and the like. He survived. What that has to do with current circumstances I have no idea. I fell off a cliff once and survived. That didn’t make much difference to my immunity. Maybe it works differently for S.Africans.

My wife is a bit more concerned. She washes everything twice, including me, and refuses To Leave the house unless it’s on fire.
But yet she still shows concern; equal or more intense, for other things such as did I clean the floor properly, why do we have so much food in the fridge, Does her bum look bigger than last week, and general women related idiosynchricities.

We are surviving nicely. Generally, life goes on. We pay attention to the people we trust (medicos, scientists, the odd politician,) to provide us with the facts
We listen to opinion and consider it just that: opinion. They don’t count for much unless there’s a beating from my mother to accompany it.
She’s been dead for 20:years so I’m safe from that.

Do I have opinions? Sure. But I know they are not alway factual. So I’m always willing to change my opinion when I learn more from what I call reliable sources, and you already know what they are.

So, James, what about you? How do you determine your opinions? What facts enable you to be confident your on the right path and I’m not. Surely we must be using the same facts. Aftpter all, facts are facts, right.

 

[Jerome Marot]

This page has playable simulation of an epidemics: https://ncase.me/covid-19/

It gets more interesting after the first half, where several scenarii can be experimented.

 

[nicolas claris]

Now I love almost every US citizen I’ve met during travels south of the border but am so glad not to have their form of governance.

So do I! (well, I would change "almost" by "a lot of"…)
BTW glad to "see" you again Michael : -)

 

[James Lemon]

Hi James.
I’m not sure where you live, James, but things seem to be quite different from a Darwin perspective.
And since I’m part of the world who is concerned by the current circumstances, I thought I might fill you in on a few things: if you’re interested, that is.

For us it’s not so black and white (non-racist). We have concerns about COVID but we are also concerned about other things.
Concern and the amount thereof is quite dependent on circumstances, as you probably know.
When there was an outbreak in Wuhan I was a bit concerned. I know enough about Petri dishes and such to understand how things can get out of hand if not attended to appropriately.
Watching the map was like being back in school, watching a cluster of bacteria growing slowly at first, then accelerating as the days went on. Fascinating.

Then my teacher would tell be to dump the dish in a bucket of bleach before the whole class came down with syphilis or whatever it was I was growing.

He would then explain to me how it all works, this herd infection and exponential stuff.
I would nod with agreement and understanding and wait until he left so I could grow something I’d found on the end of my dick. (Fortunately it turned out to be a fungus, most likely picked up from my under ware that hadn’t been changed in a week).

It was the time in my life I say polio eradicated from Australia. I found out how that worked as well.
Not a miracle, James. Fucking hard work by some very smart cookies along with a country who was willing to help by listening to them.
I had mates who had polio. Very unpleasant.

I remember all that and keep it in mind when ever I come across an infectious disease I don’t like. Like measles, mumps, whooping cough, diphtheria.... you know the things. Baby killers my mum called them.

I later discovered that there are many diseases we have around we get at some time of our lives and develop our own immunity.
Lucky us.
Some we even get from our mum while breast feeding. Just for a while at least so we can survive long enough to have our shots and/or develop our own by getting a little bit sick.

It was a concern for my parents. Not the only one, but important enough to do something if the neighbourhood had a rush of measles or the like.
“You’re not going out with you mate, Dave, this week, Tommy. His sister has measles” she order. “Now eat your Brussel sprouts“

I had no idea what Brussel sprouts had to do with measles or Dave’s sister but I did as she ordered or I’d get a thumping as well.

It was my mum’s way of being scientific in a tough love sort of way. I didn’t understand everything but I knew she had things under control.
She had 9 kids at the end and none of us died from diseases. Mind you, she did say she felt like killing us from time to time and her cooking was enough to kill the family dog; literally. It dies of heart disease. Like most of the men in the family who ate her food.

So what am I getting at.

Well, for a start, we don’t know everything about everything. Some days we just need to go with the flow and see what happens.
If we don’t, we may get a beating from my mum, figuratively speaking.
Then again, we might lose out on something that catches up with us later.

Case in mind.
When I was 63 I got real sick. Collapsed in the living room, chill, and fever, unable to move. Thought I was goin to die.
Spent some time in emergency with doctors scratching their head. Blood tests showed nothing.
Someone asked me if I wanted to see a preacher.
“Fuck off, I’d rather die” I yelled.
I didn’t die as you can clearly tell.

Turns out I had parvovirus. No, not the dog sort, silly. That’s what I thought.

I believe this is one of those ‘herd immunity’ things.
Kids get infected from each other when they exchange body fluids. Ech! Saliva mainly. Grubby little buggers.
But it’s mild. My mum called it Slapped Face Disease because of the red cheeks it produces, along with a snotty nose and a mild fever that last a day or two. Not a big deal for any kid.

Once done they are immune. Nice!

The herd get it end everyone is immune. A whole classroom of snotty nosed, red faced kids. Double yuck!

Well, almost everyone. Seems like I missed out. Probably because I didn’t mix with the right kids, or any kids. I was locked away quite a bit for setting fire to most things.

So, when I came across a snotty grand daughter with a slapped cheek I didn’t think anything of it. And I finished up with an affectionately transmitted disease that rendered me useless.

You see, old people react differently to young people when it comes to disease. While a kid can feel off colour for a day or 2, I was nearly killed me of and it took me months to recover. Old people die from it. Some don’t. Thnanks to a smart med team and good care. And my own good general health.

You see, James, some days I was concerned for good reason, other days I wasn’t concerned and should have been.

Now I’m concerned all the time. Not paranoia, just appropriate for my health and the health of those around me.

So, right now, I’m concerned. It feels like parvovirus all over again.
I wonder how this CIVID thing will affect me and those around me and what I should do to alleviate any anxiety I might have.

Mind you, I don’t lose sleep over it. I have other concerns for that. Like a pain in my neck that is giving me a permanent headache, the increase in rates the council just slammed on land owner, a tree out the from that needs lopping, and general ageing complains.

I have noticed there are different levels of concern around me from different people.
An ex-colleague seems to think he’s immune. After all, he lived in S.Africa for 40 years and was shot at by rebels and the like. He survived. What that has to do with current circumstances I have no idea. I fell off a cliff once and survived. That didn’t make much difference to my immunity. Maybe it works differently for S.Africans.

My wife is a bit more concerned. She washes everything twice, including me, and refuses To Leave the house unless it’s on fire.
But yet she still shows concern; equal or more intense, for other things such as did I clean the floor properly, why do we have so much food in the fridge, Does her bum look bigger than last week, and general women related idiosynchricities.

We are surviving nicely. Generally, life goes on. We pay attention to the people we trust (medicos, scientists, the odd politician,) to provide us with the facts
We listen to opinion and consider it just that: opinion. They don’t count for much unless there’s a beating from my mother to accompany it.
She’s been dead for 20:years so I’m safe from that.

Do I have opinions? Sure. But I know they are not alway factual. So I’m always willing to change my opinion when I learn more from what I call reliable sources, and you already know what they are.

So, James, what about you? How do you determine your opinions? What facts enable you to be confident your on the right path and I’m not. Surely we must be using the same facts. Aftpter all, facts are facts, right.

Well Tom thanks for sharing your story! Where do you get your information and what professors have you researched,do you have a list? Tell me what the f...ck is so special about the corona virus compared to Hiv, Ebola, influenza, the common cold, or any other virus? How many extra deaths may not be due to coronavirus but to other common diseases and conditions such as heart attacks, strokes, trauma, bleeding, and the like that are not adequately treated? This does not appear to be having a huge affect on children Tom, but it does mostly on those with a limited life expectancy.

 

[Jerome Marot]

How many excess deaths? Well, James, the financial times (a journal that is generally known to defend "the economy") asked themselves this very question and tried to answer it by comparing to historical averages for the season: https://www.ft.com/content/a26fbf7e-48f8-11ea-aeb3-955839e06441

Unfortunately, the figures for the US date back a month, but maybe we can take the UK as an example. It is a country which shares a lot with the US: an aging population, widespread obesity, widespread poverty, a dysfunctional hospital system (but with better results that the US) and a chief of government with bad hair. Their prime minister was also convinced that "hard immunity" was the way to go until he noticed himself that he did not realise how much being able to breathe was jolly good until air literally failed him. Then, all of a sudden, saving "the economy" took the back seat. How strange.

That late decision resulted in 50 thousands extra deaths above historical average. If we scale this to the US, with a population 5 times as big, we have 250 thousands deaths and this with a lockdown. That is what is so special about this virus: the coffins pile up.

Something else: you seem to believe only the elderly are at risk. This is not true. The elderly are at a higher risk, but a significant percentage of the people of younger age also need intensive care.

 

[Asher Kelman]

This page has playable simulation of an epidemics: https://ncase.me/covid-19/

It gets more interesting after the first half, where several scenarii can be experimented.

Jerome,

No one else I know provides such succinct eye-opening links!

Thanks!

A brilliantly clear explanation of COVID infection spread, that allows personal self-paced training!

Such tools would be helpful for everyone in positions of influence, power and authority to grasp enough insight and “gestalt” to understand experts in the subjects that are critical to decision making.

If such “courses” were one of the strict monitored requirements for folk to be qualified to Continue to hold serious office, we might have more informed and likely, better decisions made on our behalf!

We have a President who boastfully dismisses scientific advice and points to his head as proof that his insight is more reliable than their “expertise” and years of “elite” experience!

What is fascinating is that with nearly 90,000 dead and set for hundreds of thousands by the end of the year, Republican politicians are unwavering in their support!

Asher

 

[James Lemon]

How many excess deaths? Well, James, the financial times (a journal that is generally known to defend "the economy") asked themselves this very question and tried to answer it by comparing to historical averages for the season: https://www.ft.com/content/a26fbf7e-48f8-11ea-aeb3-955839e06441

Unfortunately, the figures for the US date back a month, but maybe we can take the UK as an example. It is a country which shares a lot with the US: an aging population, widespread obesity, widespread poverty, a dysfunctional hospital system (but with better results that the US) and a chief of government with bad hair. Their prime minister was also convinced that "hard immunity" was the way to go until he noticed himself that he did not realise how much being able to breathe was jolly good until air literally failed him. Then, all of a sudden, saving "the economy" took the back seat. How strange.

That late decision resulted in 50 thousands extra deaths above historical average. If we scale this to the US, with a population 5 times as big, we have 250 thousands deaths and this with a lockdown. That is what is so special about this virus: the coffins pile up.

Something else: you seem to believe only the elderly are at risk. This is not true. The elderly are at a higher risk, but a significant percentage of the people of younger age also need intensive care.

Do you know weather or not you have had the virus? What if 50 % of the UK has already been infected. Your reference to Boris Johnson is not accurate because he became sick after the fact. He decided not to go with the herd immunity route long before being hospitalized. The numbers are bogus so we are splitting hairs. Death certificates are not accurate and are different in every community. Do an autopsy and you will probably find a few pathogens of viruses present. You can not deny the fact that people with limited life expectancy are effected most, that is a well known fact.

The planet was shut down based on a grossly flawed so called scientific report, another inconvenient fact. The consequences will have a severe impact on society much more than the virus. The number of deaths will be about the same as a severe influenza out break. how do they know this? Suppose you and Tom decided to jump out the window from the sixth floor of a building? There is a chance you and Tom could both live or maybe only one of you will die but we really don't know the outcome.
Based on past statistics and common sense it it would be safe to presume that you would both die. So by studying the statistics and the behavior of other viruses we can arrive at reasonably accurate estimates of death based on past statistics. So forget the bogus numbers and the hype of body bags piling up.

 

[Jerome Marot]

Suppose you and Tom decided to jump out the window from the sixth floor of a building?

Nope, James. I know that gravity is universal and so does Tom.

 

[Jerome Marot]

No one else I know provides such succinct eye-opening links!

Maybe you don't know the right persons, then.

 

[Asher Kelman]

Maybe you don't know the right persons, then.

Just not everyone shares! Perhaps more people assume others already know!

 

[Jerome Marot]

Just not everyone shares! Perhaps more people assume others already know!

I am sorry for that last message. It was unnecessary harsh:being a trained immunologist, of course you would know more competent persons that I do. I intended to write that I do not feel particularly exceptional or clever for posting a few public Internet links.

 

[Tom dinning]

Well Tom thanks for sharing your story! Where do you get your information and what professors have you researched,do you have a list? Tell me what the f...ck is so special about the corona virus compared to Hiv, Ebola, influenza, the common cold, or any other virus? How many extra deaths may not be due to coronavirus but to other common diseases and conditions such as heart attacks, strokes, trauma, bleeding, and the like that are not adequately treated? This does not appear to be having a huge affect on children Tom, but it does mostly on those with a limited life expectancy.

James,
I’m just aN old retired school teacher living in the tropics. Most of my information comes from my mate Davo, what I glean from Christine when I’m partially listening at best, Watch Tower when I’m having a shit, and OPF when I need a laugh. No professors or lists I’m afraid.

Not much different to most people I know. Or you most likely.

I agree with you in one respect. Most of us are less informed than we could be. Even the experts on one thing, like viruses might be totally ignorant of, say, the sex life of a gnat or subterranean earth movements in the Arafura trench, irrespective of how many professors they come across on the subject.




As for stats, I didn’t think you liked maths. I look at a few graphs on the news. Nice colours. The bloke with the pointer said the US was up shit creek without a paddle (my translation) and It’s now safe for me to go outside and have my grand daughter visit.

What a nice man!

As for the jumping off buildings thing. Is that a thing where you live? We don’t have a lot of tall buildings. Irrespective of that, your analogy seemed a bit silly.
I wouldn’t jump, stats or not. I don’t need stats to tell me I’d have a fair chance of coming of second best to the pavement.

I had a visit from my grand daughter yesterday. We talk a lot. In spite of me being 66 years older than her and reasonably educated in comparison, she does have her own opinions on matters.

Here’s the general gist of the conversation relative to our chat here.

“Nevayah. You know about the virus thing, right?”
“Sure, Poppy. What do you want to know?”
“I’ve got a problem. We need some vanilla ice cream and I need to go to the supermarket”
“Sounds good. My favourite. Can I come?”
“Sure. But there have been a couple of people get sick from the virus that went to supermarkets”
“That’s Ok, Poppy. I’ll go in.”
“I don’t want you to get sick”
“Well,Poppy, if you go in you could get sick and die.”
“You could as well.”
“Nah! It doesn’t effect kids”
“Not as much. But if you get bit sick or get it on you, you might give it to me”
“Mm. OK. No ice cream then. I can do without”

See,James. Even 9 year olds can make decisions without being paranoid, as you call it.

On a small scale, nevayah did without to prevent herself from getting sick and ALSO to save my sorry arse. How nice is that.

I’m not in any way suggesting you follow my ideals here, James. I couldn’t care less. But I sure wouldn’t ask you to get the ice cream either. You see, I’d prefer to trust a sensible 9 year old than an hysterical (what’s your age?) year old.

The planet wasn’t SHUT DOWN.

Severity is by degrees and works differently for different things. Sure, the economy is slow. Sure, there’s a lot of people dead.
Sure, more people die of car accidents or in WW2. Sure the flu hits us each year.
I’ve got a feeling we deal with each one as it comes the best way know how, with a bit of contention and politics thrown in.

After all, we are just human and we are being killed of by one thing or another. And this one doesn’t even have a brain.

One last thing, James. If you think oldies are disposable you can fuck off right now. There’s no fixed timeline for life and contribution. I’m still engaged in both; a damn sight more than some a lot younger.

If we were standing in a firing squad line and the executioner said he only had one bullet; I’d do some social distancing after I’d painted a fucking target on your chest.

 

[Asher Kelman]

James!

When a child can take responsibility for protecting their own family, it should give you pause in dismissing folks reaction as somehow “extreme” or “paranoid”!


You ask, “What’s so different about this virus?”

I answer wearing my as an experienced but retired yet reasonably up to date Professor of Virology.



1. COVID 19 is the only virus that, unchecked by extreme isolation, exhausts and crushes city emergency rooms and hospitalization resources.

2. It’s the only virus that causes stroke in young people, kidney disease in young people, multi-organ inflammatory damage in children!

3. it’s the only health service destroying virus who’s infection rate is 2 or more new infected persons creating logarithmic spread!

4. its the only virus for which refrigerated truck have been employed by hospitals with no place for the dead in over-full mortuaries.

5. It’s the only virus requiring emergency mass graves in parks and new cemeteries all over the planet!

BTW, what other disease causes 1,000-2000 deaths a day in the USA alone in people not doing anything particularly dangerous, like going shopping or meeting their grandchildren?

 

[James Lemon]

James,
I’m just aN old retired school teacher living in the tropics. Most of my information comes from my mate Davo, what I glean from Christine when I’m partially listening at best, Watch Tower when I’m having a shit, and OPF when I need a laugh. No professors or lists I’m afraid.

Not much different to most people I know. Or you most likely.

I agree with you in one respect. Most of us are less informed than we could be. Even the experts on one thing, like viruses might be totally ignorant of, say, the sex life of a gnat or subterranean earth movements in the Arafura trench, irrespective of how many professors they come across on the subject.




As for stats, I didn’t think you liked maths. I look at a few graphs on the news. Nice colours. The bloke with the pointer said the US was up shit creek without a paddle (my translation) and It’s now safe for me to go outside and have my grand daughter visit.

What a nice man!

As for the jumping off buildings thing. Is that a thing where you live? We don’t have a lot of tall buildings. Irrespective of that, your analogy seemed a bit silly.
I wouldn’t jump, stats or not. I don’t need stats to tell me I’d have a fair chance of coming of second best to the pavement.

I had a visit from my grand daughter yesterday. We talk a lot. In spite of me being 66 years older than her and reasonably educated in comparison, she does have her own opinions on matters.

Here’s the general gist of the conversation relative to our chat here.

“Nevayah. You know about the virus thing, right?”
“Sure, Poppy. What do you want to know?”
“I’ve got a problem. We need some vanilla ice cream and I need to go to the supermarket”
“Sounds good. My favourite. Can I come?”
“Sure. But there have been a couple of people get sick from the virus that went to supermarkets”
“That’s Ok, Poppy. I’ll go in.”
“I don’t want you to get sick”
“Well,Poppy, if you go in you could get sick and die.”
“You could as well.”
“Nah! It doesn’t effect kids”
“Not as much. But if you get bit sick or get it on you, you might give it to me”
“Mm. OK. No ice cream then. I can do without”

See,James. Even 9 year olds can make decisions without being paranoid, as you call it.

On a small scale, nevayah did without to prevent herself from getting sick and ALSO to save my sorry arse. How nice is that.

I’m not in any way suggesting you follow my ideals here, James. I couldn’t care less. But I sure wouldn’t ask you to get the ice cream either. You see, I’d prefer to trust a sensible 9 year old than an hysterical (what’s your age?) year old.

The planet wasn’t SHUT DOWN.

Severity is by degrees and works differently for different things. Sure, the economy is slow. Sure, there’s a lot of people dead.
Sure, more people die of car accidents or in WW2. Sure the flu hits us each year.
I’ve got a feeling we deal with each one as it comes the best way know how, with a bit of contention and politics thrown in.

After all, we are just human and we are being killed of by one thing or another. And this one doesn’t even have a brain.

One last thing, James. If you think oldies are disposable you can fuck off right now. There’s no fixed timeline for life and contribution. I’m still engaged in both; a damn sight more than some a lot younger.

If we were standing in a firing squad line and the executioner said he only had one bullet; I’d do some social distancing after I’d painted a fucking target on your chest.

James!

When a child can take responsibility for protecting their own family, it should give you pause in dismissing folks reaction as somehow “extreme” or “paranoid”!


You ask, “What’s so different about this virus?”

I answer wearing my as an experienced but retired yet reasonably up to date Professor of Virology.



1. COVID 19 is the only virus that, unchecked by extreme isolation, exhausts and crushes city emergency rooms and hospitalization resources.

2. It’s the only virus that causes stroke in young people, kidney disease in young people, multi-organ inflammatory damage in children!

3. it’s the only health service destroying virus who’s infection rate is 2 or more new infected persons creating logarithmic spread!

4. its the only virus for which refrigerated truck have been employed by hospitals with no place for the dead in over-full mortuaries.

5. It’s the only virus requiring emergency mass graves in parks and new cemeteries all over the planet!

BTW, what other disease causes 1,000-2000 deaths a day in the USA alone in people not doing anything particularly dangerous, like going shopping or meeting their grandchildren?

Yes I have heard all the hype stories Asher apparently strokes are the sixth leading cause of death in children. Sure we will all be safe when the Vaccinator Super Hero arrives.

 

[James Lemon]

James,
I’m just aN old retired school teacher living in the tropics. Most of my information comes from my mate Davo, what I glean from Christine when I’m partially listening at best, Watch Tower when I’m having a shit, and OPF when I need a laugh. No professors or lists I’m afraid.

Not much different to most people I know. Or you most likely.

I agree with you in one respect. Most of us are less informed than we could be. Even the experts on one thing, like viruses might be totally ignorant of, say, the sex life of a gnat or subterranean earth movements in the Arafura trench, irrespective of how many professors they come across on the subject.




As for stats, I didn’t think you liked maths. I look at a few graphs on the news. Nice colours. The bloke with the pointer said the US was up shit creek without a paddle (my translation) and It’s now safe for me to go outside and have my grand daughter visit.

What a nice man!

As for the jumping off buildings thing. Is that a thing where you live? We don’t have a lot of tall buildings. Irrespective of that, your analogy seemed a bit silly.
I wouldn’t jump, stats or not. I don’t need stats to tell me I’d have a fair chance of coming of second best to the pavement.

I had a visit from my grand daughter yesterday. We talk a lot. In spite of me being 66 years older than her and reasonably educated in comparison, she does have her own opinions on matters.

Here’s the general gist of the conversation relative to our chat here.

“Nevayah. You know about the virus thing, right?”
“Sure, Poppy. What do you want to know?”
“I’ve got a problem. We need some vanilla ice cream and I need to go to the supermarket”
“Sounds good. My favourite. Can I come?”
“Sure. But there have been a couple of people get sick from the virus that went to supermarkets”
“That’s Ok, Poppy. I’ll go in.”
“I don’t want you to get sick”
“Well,Poppy, if you go in you could get sick and die.”
“You could as well.”
“Nah! It doesn’t effect kids”
“Not as much. But if you get bit sick or get it on you, you might give it to me”
“Mm. OK. No ice cream then. I can do without”

See,James. Even 9 year olds can make decisions without being paranoid, as you call it.

On a small scale, nevayah did without to prevent herself from getting sick and ALSO to save my sorry arse. How nice is that.

I’m not in any way suggesting you follow my ideals here, James. I couldn’t care less. But I sure wouldn’t ask you to get the ice cream either. You see, I’d prefer to trust a sensible 9 year old than an hysterical (what’s your age?) year old.

The planet wasn’t SHUT DOWN.

Severity is by degrees and works differently for different things. Sure, the economy is slow. Sure, there’s a lot of people dead.
Sure, more people die of car accidents or in WW2. Sure the flu hits us each year.
I’ve got a feeling we deal with each one as it comes the best way know how, with a bit of contention and politics thrown in.

After all, we are just human and we are being killed of by one thing or another. And this one doesn’t even have a brain.

One last thing, James. If you think oldies are disposable you can fuck off right now. There’s no fixed timeline for life and contribution. I’m still engaged in both; a damn sight more than some a lot younger.

If we were standing in a firing squad line and the executioner said he only had one bullet; I’d do some social distancing after I’d painted a fucking target on your chest.

Are all you blokes down there like babies with big bodies and broken noses always having tantrums?

 

[Tom dinning]

Are all you blokes down there like babies with big bodies and broken noses always having tantrums?

Broken noses?
Big bodies?
Tantrums?

Your talking about my sister there, James. And she’s the good looking one among us.

Be nice, James.
I’m learning how to. I’ve got some great pills if you need some help.

As my Old Man would say: “if you behave like a dickhead, people will treat you like one”. He used to say that quite a bit to me and my brothers.

I don’t know much about you, James. Give me a run down. You know. The usual stuff. Age, maybe a picture, family, education work, interests, hobbies. There must be something we can converse in without resorting to insults and accuapsations.

 

[Jerome Marot]

Because the entire US economy is manufactured in China, it became necessary to prevent the US citizen to go to their nearest Wall-Mart which ran out of everything when China decided that they were not serving the US customers any more.

 

[Asher Kelman]

Because the entire US economy is manufactured in China, it became necessary to prevent the US citizen to go to their nearest Wall-Mart which ran out of everything when China decided that they were not serving the US customers any more.

Jerome,

What about greatness of Trumps’ Mar Largo? That comes from Trumps arse! Got friends in the Czech Republic, so no need for Chinese glass!

Asher

 

[James Lemon]

Because the entire US economy is manufactured in China, it became necessary to prevent the US citizen to go to their nearest Wall-Mart which ran out of everything when China decided that they were not serving the US customers any more.

Yes this has been the case for years. Although there is a big shortage of masks for healthcare around the world, we still think it might be a good idea if everybody wore one. We have to somehow stop the spread, at airport terminals?

 

[James Lemon]

Broken noses?
Big bodies?
Tantrums?

Your talking about my sister there, James. And she’s the good looking one among us.

Be nice, James.
I’m learning how to. I’ve got some great pills if you need some help.

As my Old Man would say: “if you behave like a dickhead, people will treat you like one”. He used to say that quite a bit to me and my brothers.

I don’t know much about you, James. Give me a run down. You know. The usual stuff. Age, maybe a picture, family, education work, interests, hobbies. There must be something we can converse in without resorting to insults and accuapsations.

Suppose it was the other way around how would you feel about it? The differences are well established facts Tom but yet you seem to take offence to them. You might want to consider that being elderly and having a limited life expectancy are two different scenarios. I did not imply that elderly people are expendable.

The pandemic mostly killed young adults. In 1918–1919, 99% of pandemic influenza deaths in the U.S. occurred in people under 65, and nearly half of deaths were in young adults 20 to 40 years old.
Date: spring 1918 – spring/summer 1919
Deaths: 17–50+ million (estimate)
Virus strain: A/H1N1
Disease: Influenza
https://www.google.com/search?q=spa....69i57j0l7.19020j0j8&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8

 

[Tom dinning]

Suppose it was the other way around how would you feel about it? The differences are well established facts Tom but yet you seem to take offence to them. You might want to consider that being elderly and having a limited life expectancy are two different scenarios. I did not imply that elderly people are expendable.

The pandemic mostly killed young adults. In 1918–1919, 99% of pandemic influenza deaths in the U.S. occurred in people under 65, and nearly half of deaths were in young adults 20 to 40 years old.
Date: spring 1918 – spring/summer 1919
Deaths: 17–50+ million (estimate)
Virus strain: A/H1N1
Disease: Influenza
https://www.google.com/search?q=spa....69i57j0l7.19020j0j8&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8

no offence here, James.

two things: the FACT is it’s NOT the other way around.
How I would FEEL about it doesn’t enter into the picture. Not even I take much notice of my feelings.

I’m not following you argument, James. Then again, I’m not following your premise or position.
I feel,like I’m back in a classroom and the 28 students are all yelling “But, Sir .....) at me in response to a simple situation.

it seems simple to me.

there’s a virus we don’t have a vaccine for.
It’s contagious among humans
It kills people
It has spread throughout the global community

Based on that simple premise, James, the medical people have suggested ways of dealing with it.
Politicians make choices in different places.

what happens from there is that lots of people become ‘experts’ along the way.

what do we do?

whatever is best for you.

if I don’t like what you do and it influences what I want to do I keep away from you.

seems reasonable?

 

[James Lemon]

no offence here, James.

two things: the FACT is it’s NOT the other way around.
How I would FEEL about it doesn’t enter into the picture. Not even I take much notice of my feelings.

I’m not following you argument, James. Then again, I’m not following your premise or position.
I feel,like I’m back in a classroom and the 28 students are all yelling “But, Sir .....) at me in response to a simple situation.

it seems simple to me.

there’s a virus we don’t have a vaccine for.
It’s contagious among humans
It kills people
It has spread throughout the global community

Based on that simple premise, James, the medical people have suggested ways of dealing with it.
Politicians make choices in different places.

what happens from there is that lots of people become ‘experts’ along the way.

what do we do?

whatever is best for you.

if I don’t like what you do and it influences what I want to do I keep away from you.

seems reasonable?

Thread is titled Covid 19 lock-down in case you missed it Tom. Lock-downs are simply not sustainable for the amount of time that it will likely take to develop a vaccine. But at the end of the day, increased—and ultimately, herd—immunity may be the only viable defense against the disease, so long as vulnerable groups are protected along the way.

 

[Tom dinning]

Thread is titled Covid 19 lock-down in case you missed it Tom. Lock-downs are simply not sustainable for the amount of time that it will likely take to develop a vaccine. But at the end of the day, increased—and ultimately, herd—immunity may be the only viable defense against the disease, so long as vulnerable groups are protected along the way.

Is that your name for it?

 

[Tom dinning]

Thread is titled Covid 19 lock-down in case you missed it Tom. Lock-downs are simply not sustainable for the amount of time that it will likely take to develop a vaccine. But at the end of the day, increased—and ultimately, herd—immunity may be the only viable defense against the disease, so long as vulnerable groups are protected along the way.

Sure, James.
And pigs fly, the moon is a hollow space ship, the earth is flat and the Queen of GB is a lizard.

I looked those up on the internet. They must be true.

 

[Jerome Marot]

Suppose it was the other way around how would you feel about it?

How I would FEEL about it doesn’t enter into the picture.

I think that particular exchange sums it up very well.

This discussion is fascinating. From the onset it was clear that James was trolling us and my answer was along those lines. No it seems clear that the discussion can only go in circle with James claiming "but the economy" at regular intervals.

But James is, generally speaking, a respectable member of this community so I wonder why he is acting as he is.

The discussion is also an example of others I have seen online with other persons in other places. The persons can be of variable political inclinations but their political leaning is always clear. They may be (non-limitative example list): climate change deniers, against particular sexualities for religious reasons, against immigration, but also for immediate massive action for climate, supporters of boat saving actions in the Mediterranean, radical feminists, etc...

Interestingly, in most cases I have mixed opinion about these subjects. It is never black and white. For the discussion here about covid-19, completely crashing industrial production is obviously not a choice either, eventually people will go mad and we may even disrupt food and energy distribution. Nobody wants that.

Interestingly, in all cases one side tries to appeal to scientific arguments while the other side appeals to feelings. This is probably the crux of the matter: for whatever reason, James has strong feelings against a lockdown. The others and I do not appear to have any particularly strong feeling either for or against a lockdown, they just see it as a temporary compromise for easing a serious situation. We will never understand each other like that.

The virus, of course, does not care about feelings. It is just a little ball of RNA set for reproduction.

 

[Tom dinning]

I think that particular exchange sums it up very well.

.... it was clear that James was trolling us........

if that’s what it is....


But James is, generally speaking, a respectable member of this community so I wonder why he is acting as he is.

he’s a member like the rest of us. Any of us can act in accordance with our predilection. I’m not familiar with James’s size, standing or other qualities, so I’ll reserve my judgement on his respectability. That’s not necessarily a qualification required to have any sort of valued, informed or completely erroneous

The discussion is also an example of others I have seen online with other persons in other places. The persons can be of variable political inclinations but their political leaning is always clear. They may be (non-limitative example list): climate change deniers, against particular sexualities for religious reasons, against immigration, but also for immediate massive action for climate, supporters of boat saving actions in the Mediterranean, radical feminists, etc...


Interestingly, in most cases I have mixed opinion about these subjects. It is never black and white. For the discussion here about covid-19, completely crashing industrial production is obviously not a choice either, eventually people will go mad and we may even disrupt food and energy distribution. Nobody wants that.

there are always choices. And any alternative is a possibility. Even doing nothing is a choice. ‘Obviously’ has the effect of suggesting those who see a particular choice as a possibility or a preferred course of action as fools or radicals.

might I suggest also that feelings don’t have any factual relevance. Feelings, no matter how strong, do not over-ride the quality of factual information.

 

[Jerome Marot]

You are nit-picking, Tom. By "generally speaking, a respectable member of this community", I simply meant: "not particularly standing out as problematic".

As to feelings not having any factual relevance, while I generally agree with you, not everybody does. For more people that I would like, truth is what they feel like and the rest is fake news.

 

[James Lemon]

I think that particular exchange sums it up very well.

This discussion is fascinating. From the onset it was clear that James was trolling us and my answer was along those lines. No it seems clear that the discussion can only go in circle with James claiming "but the economy" at regular intervals.

But James is, generally speaking, a respectable member of this community so I wonder why he is acting as he is.

The discussion is also an example of others I have seen online with other persons in other places. The persons can be of variable political inclinations but their political leaning is always clear. They may be (non-limitative example list): climate change deniers, against particular sexualities for religious reasons, against immigration, but also for immediate massive action for climate, supporters of boat saving actions in the Mediterranean, radical feminists, etc...

Interestingly, in most cases I have mixed opinion about these subjects. It is never black and white. For the discussion here about covid-19, completely crashing industrial production is obviously not a choice either, eventually people will go mad and we may even disrupt food and energy distribution. Nobody wants that.

Interestingly, in all cases one side tries to appeal to scientific arguments while the other side appeals to feelings. This is probably the crux of the matter: for whatever reason, James has strong feelings against a lockdown. The others and I do not appear to have any particularly strong feeling either for or against a lockdown, they just see it as a temporary compromise for easing a serious situation. We will never understand each other like that.

The virus, of course, does not care about feelings. It is just a little ball of RNA set for reproduction.

The lock-down is meant to slow the spread not to stop it,but maybe folks forgot about that? So our behaviors,thinking,emotions,feelings are more than relevant.

Health officials have already warned that a second wave of the novel coronavirus that causes the disease could be imminent. If this happens and when is the question? We can only kick the can down the road so far. Waiting around for a vaccine or hoping you can somehow avoid it altogether is just wishful thinking. The Spanish flu had 3 waves. However if and when the shit hits the fan again countries like Sweden will be in a much better position.

Hiding in your basement, trying to figure out the logistics of acquiring ice-cream, and just passing the time is an option for some. The liabilities of extended lock-downs out weigh the benefits and the sooner people wake up to that reality, the better.

 

[Jerome Marot]

James, it seems I was not clear enough.

I am not interested in arguing about which strategy is the best against covid-19. I never was and I made abundantly clear so. The reason I am not interested has nothing to do with you, I am not interested because the answer is impossible to prove or disprove.

The only thing I am interested in is why the discussion is so important to you.