In Perspective, Planet: Loss of Billions of Birds in North America!

[Asher Kelman]

James,

I have already remarked on the plausibility of Moore’s arguments. He sees rising CO2 as a boon to life!

He didn’t say insects, birds and snakes aren't decreasing. He didn’t say we are NOT having species loss.

Asher

 

[James Lemon]

James,

I have already remarked on the plausibility of Moore’s arguments. He sees rising CO2 as a boon to life!

He didn’t say insects, birds and snakes aren't decreasing. He didn’t say we are NOT having species loss.

Asher

Yeah well my truck can travel 800 feet per gallon "Big" enough to drive over Al Gores head.

James

 

[Asher Kelman]

Yeah well my truck can travel 800 feet per gallon "Big" enough to drive over Al Gores head.

James

James,

Translate that into logic. Arm waving here doesn’t advance a discussion. So any such comments needs to be avoided. Note that I didn’t mock Moore.

I will attempt to find a logical analysis!

Asher

 

[James Lemon]

James,

Translate that into logic. Arm waving here doesn’t advance a discussion. So any such comments needs to be avoided. Note that I didn’t mock Moore.

I will attempt to find a logical analysis!

Asher

Asher

Dr. Patrick Moore is an internationally renowned ecologist and environmentalist. Al Gore ,Greta Thunberg have big heads, preach propaganda for profit and don't have any credentials other than their hype. So you tell me who the arm wavers are... as for logic, it was thrown out the window a long time ago.

James

 

[Asher Kelman]

Asher

Dr. Patrick Moore is an internationally renowned ecologist and environmentalist. Al Gore ,Greta Thunberg have big heads, preach propaganda for profit and don't have any credentials other than their hype. So you tell me who the arm wavers are... as for logic, it was thrown out the window a long time ago.

James

I assure you that my response will be with detailed logic.

I too have no faith in Al Gore but find the girl adorable and worthy or respect!

Asher

 

[James Lemon]

I assure you that my response will be with detailed logic.

I too have no faith in Al Gore but find the girl adorable and worthy or respect!

Asher

Asher

Greta Thunberg is part of a well-connected network tied to the organization of Al Gore who is being cynically and professionally marketed and used by such agencies as the UN, the EU commission and the financial interests behind the present climate agenda.

 

[Asher Kelman]

Asher

Greta Thunberg is part of a well-connected network tied to the organization of Al Gore who is being cynically and professionally marketed and used by such agencies as the UN, the EU commission and the financial interests behind the present climate agenda.

James,

None of that matters as it provides no logical proof on anything. You made a political statement. Hold off until I give you a clear response based on stepwise addressing of Moore’s arguments.

But you will have a lot of reading to do!

Asher

 

[James Lemon]

James,

None of that matters as it provides no logical proof on anything. You made a political statement. Hold off until I give you a clear response based on stepwise addressing of Moore’s arguments.

But you will have a lot of reading to do!

Asher

Asher

I am not interested in some radical climate strategy that is in favor of a vague unexplained "Green Economy". It is not a political statement nor is it about the illusion of an international climate policy. But it is worth noting who is promoting the propaganda and radical activism for their own economic agenda.

 

[Asher Kelman]

Asher

I am not interested in some radical climate strategy that is in favor of a vague unexplained "Green Economy". It is not a political statement nor is it about the illusion of an international climate policy. But it is worth noting who is promoting the propaganda and radical activism for their own economic agenda.

James,

For me, once you introduced us to Patrick Moore, I assumed that you wanted us to consider him as a serious scientist. His aspects as a representative for other interests will be ignored. To do that you must agree to cease talking in terms of conspiracies, as my mind is only open to logic, not arm waving or propaganda. All insinuations of conspiracy have to be laid aside.

To me, it’s just a matter of getting down to the labor of examining likelihood of any argument made being either true or false. Moore in his video convincingly strings together, in rapid fire succession streams of statements,

1. some being true.
2. some being true in limited unique circumstances, but then being presented as generally or universally true!
3. Other statements are patently false.

We don’t set out to “prove” anything in science. There are no such proofs! Outside of mathematics, all we can do is generate probabilities with some estimate of certainty.

If you can agree with me on this approach, then we can proceed.

Asher

 

[Jerome Marot]

His name is Patrick Moore and you can watch an edited version of his speech at the Global Warming Policy Foundation in London 2015 at the link below. To date nobody has refuted these assertions.

Nobody refuted these assertions, because they are largely correct. Releasing all the carbon trapped in sediments at the carboniferous period would, logically, bring the planet back to the balance of the carboniferous era, about 300 millions ago. But there are two small details:

1. releasing such massive amount in what amounts in a few seconds of geological time, has only happened in catastrophic events linked to mass extinctions in pervious geological eras.
2. in the carboniferous era, the oceans were quite a bit higher than today, which is bad news for all the people and all the industry in the areas which will be flooded.

Patrick Moore presentation is a classical case of straw man fallacy. He pretends that the earth will be too hot for life and refutes that. But the argument to be refuted is not that the earth will be too hot for life but to flooded to support 7 billions people.

 

[James Lemon]

Asher Jerome

If either one of you really believe that any of this has to do with environmental policy you should give up the illusion. Instead you can invest in some top ranking global index of environmental stocks with Goldman Sachs or maybe some solar asset backed securities,green bonds, or some other climate company, hmmm. No conspiracies here.

James

 

[Jerome Marot]

Sorry, James, but I don't see the logic in your last argument.

 

[Asher Kelman]

Asher Kelman: “Driven west on the I-10 Freeway”
From as series Here​

James,

Sharing something interesting is not a fair way of arguing and does not advance your position.

Admit, that even mentioning environmental stocks or Goldman Sachs is changing the subject! But it’s still worth enjoying, but not instead of answering a challenge from Jérôme!

In a lecture on the chemistry of polymers one can drop a piece of sodium metal into water to watch its wild around, exploding into flames! However, beyond being entertaining and educational, like your remark on Goldman Sachs, it has nothing to do with the subject at hand.

Asher Kelman: “Future Relic of Petro-Carbon Industry” ​

James, can you read once more Jérôme’s post and respond to his simple logical comments.

If we can focus on discrete arguments, we can all advance our knowledge or are you claiming that EVERYTHING Patrick Moore states in his lecture is valid?

Asher

[BTW, your recommendations on stock may be great...and valuable to hear. I know little about investing myself, but we can focus on that separately!]

 

[James Lemon]

View attachment 3014

Asher Kelman: “Driven west on the I-10 Freeway”
From as series Here​

James,

Sharing something interesting is not a fair way of arguing and does not advance your position.

Admit, that even mentioning environmental stocks or Goldman Sachs is changing the subject! But it’s still worth enjoying, but not instead of answering a challenge from Jérôme!

In a lecture on the chemistry of polymers one can drop a piece of sodium metal into water to watch its wild around, exploding into flames! However, beyond being entertaining and educational, like your remark on Goldman Sachs, it has nothing to do with the subject at hand.

View attachment 3011

Asher Kelman: “Future Relic of Petro-Carbon Industry” ​

James, can you read once more Jérôme’s post and respond to his simple logical comments.




If we can focus on discrete arguments, we can all advance our knowledge or are you claiming that EVERYTHING Patrick Moore states in his lecture is valid?

Asher

[BTW, your recommendations on stock may be great...and valuable to hear. I know little about investing myself, but we can focus on that separately!]

Sorry Asher but the real agenda is economic, plain and simple. Nature has become banking commodities, tradable as firearms and toilets. But don't worry there is still lots of coal left in the ground to dig up and produce electricity for your green cars, when petrol gets too expensive...eh?





James

 

[Asher Kelman]

James,

Once again you have diverted, as if I do not already know how much coal is left or the economics of carbon credit?

I have responded to your introduction of Patrick Moore with considerable restraint and courtesy. I didn’t call you idiotic for quoting him, so why give answers that assume I need basic knowledge about the world’s resources and economics?

Again I ask you to put aside generalizations and reflex opinions and just deal with one topic: the video you introduced.

Why not just address Jérôme’s two points in post #70 about Patrick Moore’s rehetoric?

Asher

 

[James Lemon]

James,

Once again you have diverted, as if I do not already know how much coal is left or the economics of carbon credit?

I have responded to your introduction of Patrick Moore with considerable restraint and courtesy. I didn’t call you idiotic for quoting him, so why give answers that assume I need basic knowledge about the world’s resources and economics?

Again I ask you to put aside generalizations and reflex opinions and just deal with one topic: the video you introduced.

Why not just address Jérôme’s two points in post #70 about Patrick Moore’s rehetoric?

Asher

Oh and C02 is a pollutant too? What a laugh but how can you go on claiming that the current climate agenda is about environmental policy when the facts tell a different story? The one-sided political treatment of CO2 as a pollutant that should be radically reduced must be corrected in light of the indisputable scientific evidence that it is essential to life on Earth. There is no scientific proof that increased CO2 will result in disaster.

 

[Asher Kelman]

.....and the points raised by Jérôme?

Can’t you debate without political talking points.

If you are so reactive merely with Jérôme’s simple comments, the analysis I will provide next, will no doubt simply flow over your defense shields and not have any worth!

Still for only the sake of completeness, I will provide, as promised, a rigorous but skeptical disassembly of Moore’s Pro-carbon industry stance.

Asher

 

[Asher Kelman]

Here

is an excellent beginning to a logical look at the claims of the very impressive but unfortunately simply a propaganda video of Patrick Moore, who for decades has been an advocate for the energy industry.

It’s worth getting your favorite beverage and carefully working through the disassembling of Moore’s flamboyant dismissal of the catastrophe of man-made global environmental damage.

But I also don’t expect the Pope to be persuaded to drop the Gospels in favor of the Koran or England to give up on Cricket or PG Tips tea!.

Logic will not persuade the climate change deniers as this is a fixed point of view, clutched like a Crucifix of folk standing before the lions in the Coliseum in Rome!

Asher

 

[Jerome Marot]

For the record, my post did not include a question and I did not expect a response. I simply stated that Michael Moore's assertions are largely correct, but off the point. For example, it is factually correct that plants use CO2 and that the present increase in CO2 allow them to grow faster, a fact noticed and welcomed by forest growers and the wood industry. That is, however, unrelated to the observation that CO2 increase has always been linked with raise of sea levels in geological times.

As to the economic agenda, James argument is also likely to be correct. Goldman Sachs and Greenpeace are likely to see the present political situation as a business opportunity, Greenpeace because it is their core business and Goldman Sachs because they see business opportunities in everything. This, however, is again unrelated to the observation that CO2 increase has always been linked with raise of sea levels in geological times.

The simple fact is that burning carbon compounds in large scales as we are doing today increases CO2 concentration in our atmosphere. This is undisputed. Then we have the observation that CO2 increase has always been linked with raise of sea levels in geological times.

Then, people living on top of mountains may not want to care to much. Until the people living in coastal areas need to relocate, I suppose.

 

[James Lemon]

​

Sea levels have been rising for 12 thousand years and most prudent people build their homes on high ground and yet there are those who choose to live in places like a towns called Flood. Should they build dikes or rely on flood insurance? I personally live 4100 hundred feet above sea level.

According to Nassa Science. "Recent observations of Greenland and the West Antarctic Ice Sheet raise concerns for the future. Satellites detect a thinning of parts of the Greenland Ice Sheet at lower elevations, and glaciers are disgorging ice into the ocean more rapidly, adding 0.23 to 0.57 mm/yr to the sea within the last decade. The West Antarctic Ice Sheet is also showing some signs of thinning. Either ice sheet, if melted completely, contains enough ice to raise sea level by 5-7 m. A global temperature rise of 2-5°C might destabilize Greenland irreversibly. Such a temperature rise lies within the range of several future climate projections for the 21st century. However, any significant meltdown would take many centuries. Furthermore, even with possible future accelerated discharge from the West Antarctic Ice Sheet, it highly unlikely that annual rates of sea level rise would exceed those of the major post-glacial meltwater pulse"

I would also point out that "CO2 was not the initial cause of melting ice on the planet. It merely amplified a signal that was already in progress."


https://www.giss.nasa.gov/research/briefs/gornitz_09/

https://scripps.ucsd.edu/programs/k...-co2-levels-relate-to-ice-ages-and-sea-level/

 

[Jerome Marot]

What are those brown spots on this small picture?

 

[James Lemon]

What are those brown spots on this small picture?

Mud on the windshield.

James

 

[Jerome Marot]

Is your job to build that pipe-line?

 

[James Lemon]

Is your job to build that pipe-line?

Somebody has to keep the seniors,and children warm on those cold chilly nights!

 

[Jerome Marot]

So I understand that you help build the pipe-line. What is it exactly that you do?

I also understand that this pipe-line is for natural gas which, amongst fossil fuels, has one of the lowest carbon footprints.

 

[James Lemon]

So I understand that you help build the pipe-line. What is it exactly that you do?

I also understand that this pipe-line is for natural gas which, amongst fossil fuels, has one of the lowest carbon footprints.

I would rather not go into details but someone has to keep the owners happy in terms of quality assurance. Yes natural gas, hydro electricity are plentiful in this part of the world and practical, there is also windmill power as well, in some areas. Coal burning plants can be made very clean too if built right and of course there is also nuclear that provide practical,efficient,energy solutions.

Without discussing the merits of conventional power verses alternatives I can tell you that I do not believe in man made global warming.

I also believe that C02 is beneficial to the planet and do not view it as a pollutant," it is essential to life itself " in fact we need more of it on the planet not less. C02 has been at much higher levels in the past. Al Gore and Greta Thunberg should just stop breathing if they think it is a pollutant. But you can look up the logarithmic effect of carbon dioxide yourself.




The idea that we can use C02 as a thermostat to adjust the temperature of the of the planet is not only foolish but absurd. Sea levels have been rising for thousands of years and there is nothing out of the ordinary going on here. The mass hysteria that is going on around the world about sea levels rising,global warming in the next 12 years is hard to grasp, how anyone can believe this nonsense. The climate model predictions are just plain wrong and 97% of the skeptics are right.

Why not tax the sun too?

James

 

[Asher Kelman]

James,

Well, fly over to New Jersey and tell them what to do to fight the rising waters!

What do you tell the Solomon Islands who have already lost 5 tiny islands from their archipelago?

Share your findings with the thousands of Islands threatened by rising waters and they will be reassured for sure!

Asher

 

[Jerome Marot]

I would rather not go into details but someone has to keep the owners happy in terms of quality assurance.

So you are ensuring the pipe is built to specs, correct?

I can tell you that I do not believe in man made global warming.

I think we figured that out already. Of course, things happen whether we believe in them or not. Personally, I don't think that burning hydrocarbons by the scale humanity is doing it is likely to be without consequences.

 

[James Lemon]

James,

Well, fly over to New Jersey and tell them what to do to fight the rising waters!

What do you tell the Solomon Islands who have already lost 5 tiny islands from their archipelago?

Share your findings with the thousands of Islands threatened by rising waters and they will be reassured for sure!

Asher

The United States has flood maps available online for homeowners to review. Flood maps indicate which areas generally flood if water rises to a certain level. They allow both homeowners and policymakers to make informed decisions about asset management, urban planning, and flood risk management.

 

[James Lemon]

So you are ensuring the pipe is built to specs, correct?




I think we figured that out already. Of course, things happen whether we believe in them or not. Personally, I don't think that burning hydrocarbons by the scale humanity is doing it is likely to be without consequences.

Jerome

According to the logarithmic effect of carbon dioxide there wont be any adverse negative consequences. However you should consider the consequences of the alternatives which are real nasty when compared to oil and gas extraction.The mining of rare earth metals, used in everything from smart phones to wind turbines, has long been dominated by China. But as mining of these key elements spreads to countries like Malaysia and Brazil, scientists warn of the dangers of the toxic and radioactive waste generated by the mines and processing plants.

https://e360.yale.edu/features/boom_in_mining_rare_earths_poses_mounting_toxic_risks



James